The Gaming Den

Chamomile wrote:Whatever it is, it isn't hard to do, it's just a nuisance to look up, which is why (as before) I'm not going to bother doing so.

You have a stupid definition of hard to understand if it doesn't include things that no one on a forum dedicated to gaming understands about a game.

It doesn't matter if it's because it's "hard to look up" like grapple, or completely vague and unknowable, like you were claiming in your last post, and like the question of Ray of Frost at a huge creature, which if you had looked up you would have discovered. (Which is also hard to look up because it's under an asterik in the ranged attack table.) Or if it's because it's just hard to understand anything, like Shapechange referring to Polymorph referring to Alter Self referring to Change Shape and having an imaginary Polymorph subschool attached, even though the subschool specifically states that text of the just those spells supersedes it. (PS, also vague as shit, and hard to look up.)

Anything which most people don't know, and really can't know without of work, and also, when they try to figure it out, don't actually succeed is hard to understand, whether that's because they don't look at the ranged attack table for asterix to determine how to fire into a grapple or not, it's still obviously hard to understand.

I should hope the difference between "hard to look up" and "hard to understand" would be self-evident. That is, after all, the purpose of language. Something which is "hard to understand" is difficult to comprehend even when explained coherently. A mechanic that is hard to understand is difficult to comprehend even if you have someone with perfect knowledge of the rules on hand to answer every question you may have instantly and correctly, thus eliminating the formatting of the rules text entirely. If even a perfectly constructed explanation of the rule in question would not make them easy to understand, then the rule itself is difficult.

The problem with grapples, attacks of opportunity, and etc. are, as you have yourself quite clearly demonstrated, a problem of poorly formatted rules. If the rules were more competently organized, they would not be difficult to understand. This makes them hard to look up.

Is English perhaps your second language?

no kaelik is just an asshole

When I play an RPG i would hope that after a couple of sessions I would have remembered all the basic rules and would no longer need to refer to the rule book for every action. I would say I understand all the basic rules. Any rule which is sufficiently complicated that I have to refer the the rulebook every time such an action takes place is hard to understand.

I think most players use this terminology, which is why grappling and AoO get a reputation for being too complicated.

While the basic "version" of AoO is straightforward, the fact that that interaction can change based on so many things that aren't spelled out in any one place makes it a very steep learning curve; the rules are many and varied, and they are poorly formatted.

Kaelik wrote: So how about this, when a Huge Creature grapples a Medium creature, and you shoot a ray of frost at the huge creature, what happens? Okay, now you are shooting at the medium creature, what happens?

2nd part is easiest. Take a -4 penalty to the Attack roll, unless you have [Precise Shot]. Roll randomly* to determine who is struck, and both grapplers are denied their Dex mod to AC.

1st part.

Assumption 1: Using the mount rules, the Huge and the Medium grappler occupy the same space. Therefore -4 penalty to Attack roll, unless you have [Precise Shot]. Roll randomly* to determine who is struck, and both grapplers are denied their Dex mod to AC.

or

Assumption 2: Ignore mount rules and medium grappler occupies 1 of the 9 squares that the huge grappler does.** If there is a square of the huge grappler that is 10' (2 sqr) away from the Medium grappler, then the ray can be fired at that square with no penalty on the attack roll. Roll randomly* to determine who is struck, and both grapplers are denied their Dex mod to AC.

*There is no defined mechanic for this. i suggest adding the total number of squares that both grapplers normally occupy (in this case 10) and use a corresponding die to give a weighted random roll.

**There is no defined mechanic for this. I suggest that since the initiator of the grapple has to move into the square of the grapplee, they get to decide which square overlaps. (In the above example it would be to the Huge creatures advantage to have the medium creature occupy its center square. the medium creature would want to occupy one of the outer squares.)

duo31 wrote:

Kaelik wrote: So how about this, when a Huge Creature grapples a Medium creature, and you shoot a ray of frost at the huge creature, what happens? Okay, now you are shooting at the medium creature, what happens?

House rules...

So, the idea isn't to make up your own rules to answer this question. What does the actual text say about this issue? i frankly don't know but i am looking at the horribly formatted SRD. Maybe, by next year, I might have an answer...

Seriously, that is my go to rules make no fucking sense question.